Bus Bars for 12 Volt Car Stereo System

[smullen]

Thanks for taking time to anser my post...


You said:
""

What's wrong with just using the battery cables designed for the purpose?

They

are hanging on the wall, made up with ring connectors, at the auto parts

store.
""



For one, I don't really want to go that route.

I am trying to design this system for show as well as functionality and I
want something that looks a tad nicer than plain old autozone cables.

My system will put out over 3000 watts so I'd like is to use a heavy guage
wire, (even if a little bit of over kill) say 0/1 guage that I already
have, from front to rear then bus the 3 batteries in the rear together.

I had some top mount post to use sort of like your idea, but when the three
batteries are mounted together its hard/impossible to fit the battery
terminals on there that have dual 0/1 connections and be able to arc/bend
the cable from terminal to terminal to terminal, with that short of a
radius.

Hence where the Bus bar idea came in... If I can find the right materials,
this should not be that hard.

Scott

[sQuick..]

I am building a rather large car stereo system and I have three Optima

Deep

cycle batteries that I want to custom make bus bars to connect across the
three of them.
I am having trouble finding copper bars in the thickness I want, would
aluminium do the trick?
There will be one for POS and one for NEG and covered by a plexiglass

cover

I
made for the battery rack....
The bars will be about 2.25" wide x 1" tall x 21" long and have a hole
tapped in each end for a set scew and 0/1 guage wire and a few smaller

holes

on the side for smaller wires for distribution...
Will aluminum work, has anyone here done this before? Also want this to
look nice as its on a truck I enter in shows some times.
Any help would be great

Why does the bus bar need to be so large,
I'm sure you could find 2" x 1/4" or 2" x 1/2"
copper bar. I use this size copper bar all the
time for main dist boards etc.

sQuick..



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[Harry Conover]

I am building a rather large car stereo system and I have three Optima Deep
cycle batteries that I want to custom make bus bars to connect across the
three of them.
I am having trouble finding copper bars in the thickness I want, would
aluminium do the trick?
There will be one for POS and one for NEG and covered by a plexiglass cover
I
made for the battery rack....
The bars will be about 2.25" wide x 1" tall x 21" long and have a hole
tapped in each end for a set scew and 0/1 guage wire and a few smaller holes
on the side for smaller wires for distribution...
Will aluminum work, has anyone here done this before? Also want this to
look nice as its on a truck I enter in shows some times.
Any help would be great

Seriously, is this a troll?

Realize, using bus bars for a car stereo is a bit of a stretch for
many of us, unless you are of course an employee of Monster Garare!

Can I assume that every sterio speaker in your home is wired with
"Monster Speaker Cables" as well? ROFL!

Realize that people in the car audio business pray for guys like you
to walk in the dooor!

'Nuff said...'

Harry C.

[Anthony Fremont]

Post by Harry Conover
Seriously, is this a troll?

I didn't see anything really trollish about his post, yours however is
another matter.

Post by Harry Conover
Realize, using bus bars for a car stereo is a bit of a stretch for
many of us, unless you are of course an employee of Monster Garare!

You should re-read the OP's post, the application is as much about looks
as it is functionality. It's for a show truck, so he wants it to look
good. Of course >3kW for 12V system is a tad bit of a current, wouldn't
you agree?

Post by Harry Conover
Can I assume that every sterio speaker in your home is wired with
"Monster Speaker Cables" as well? ROFL!

Nice ad hominem attack Harry, I take it the OP has offended you somehow
before? I'm not sure how you made the leap from DC power busses to
audio cable, but whatever floats your boat.

Post by Harry Conover
Realize that people in the car audio business pray for guys like you
to walk in the dooor!

Very good Harry. I never cease to be amazed at your incredible ability
to parse a few statements from someone into a "air-tight, case closed,
you're an idiot" judgment call. I enjoy the way you waste no time
actually conversing with someone in order to clarify their position
before pronouncing sentence. I'm sure that works out quite well for you
as you then get to interpret things solely the way you wish, without
regard to any confusing facts.

Post by Harry Conover
'Nuff said...'

Yes you have said quite enough, once again.

[Tom Grqyson]

| My system will put out over 3000 watts

Scott,
I hope a lot of this power is in the "Feel It" range
rather then in the "Hear It" range.

As a Kid, I loved to play it loud. Now, when aproaching
50, I have to really crank up the volume to get it all.

Naturally, it can only be when all the others are out
of the house.

Hearing damage is not only a bitch, but irreversable.

Tom

[Louis Bybee]

Post by Tom Grqyson
| My system will put out over 3000 watts
Scott,
I hope a lot of this power is in the "Feel It" range
rather then in the "Hear It" range.
As a Kid, I loved to play it loud. Now, when aproaching
50, I have to really crank up the volume to get it all.
Naturally, it can only be when all the others are out
of the house.
Hearing damage is not only a bitch, but irreversable.
Tom

To the original poster,

You would be well advised to have two positive bus bars, or terminal blocks,
with one connecting the batteries, and a fuse between the battery buss, and
the load wire buss. The available energy if the bus, or one of the load
wires, were to become shorted staggers the imagination!

You might even consider (the best option in my book) one bus with a bolt-on
type fuse between each battery positive terminal, and the bus. Sub-fusing
each load connecting to the bus would also be a good plan.

If this is for show applications you might also consider plating the bus
after machining to avoid the discoloration that would occur to copper.

Louis

[**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**]

Halon fire supression would be a must have as well.

Post by Louis Bybee

Post by Tom Grqyson
| My system will put out over 3000 watts
Scott,
I hope a lot of this power is in the "Feel It" range
rather then in the "Hear It" range.
As a Kid, I loved to play it loud. Now, when aproaching
50, I have to really crank up the volume to get it all.
Naturally, it can only be when all the others are out
of the house.
Hearing damage is not only a bitch, but irreversable.
Tom

To the original poster,
You would be well advised to have two positive bus bars, or terminal blocks,
with one connecting the batteries, and a fuse between the battery buss, and
the load wire buss. The available energy if the bus, or one of the load
wires, were to become shorted staggers the imagination!
You might even consider (the best option in my book) one bus with a bolt-on
type fuse between each battery positive terminal, and the bus. Sub-fusing
each load connecting to the bus would also be a good plan.
If this is for show applications you might also consider plating the bus
after machining to avoid the discoloration that would occur to copper.
Louis

[Gym Bob]

How's the tinnitus?

Post by Louis Bybee

Post by Tom Grqyson
| My system will put out over 3000 watts
Scott,
I hope a lot of this power is in the "Feel It" range
rather then in the "Hear It" range.
As a Kid, I loved to play it loud. Now, when aproaching
50, I have to really crank up the volume to get it all.
Naturally, it can only be when all the others are out
of the house.
Hearing damage is not only a bitch, but irreversable.
Tom

To the original poster,
You would be well advised to have two positive bus bars, or terminal blocks,
with one connecting the batteries, and a fuse between the battery buss, and
the load wire buss. The available energy if the bus, or one of the load
wires, were to become shorted staggers the imagination!
You might even consider (the best option in my book) one bus with a bolt-on
type fuse between each battery positive terminal, and the bus. Sub-fusing
each load connecting to the bus would also be a good plan.
If this is for show applications you might also consider plating the bus
after machining to avoid the discoloration that would occur to copper.
Louis

[bg]

Post by Tom Grqyson
| My system will put out over 3000 watts
Scott,
I hope a lot of this power is in the "Feel It" range
rather then in the "Hear It" range.

Huh??

Post by Tom Grqyson
As a Kid, I loved to play it loud. Now, when aproaching
50, I have to really crank up the volume to get it all.

Huh??

Post by Tom Grqyson
Naturally, it can only be when all the others are out
of the house.

HUH???

Post by Tom Grqyson
Hearing damage is not only a bitch, but irreversable.
Tom

Speak up dammit! I can't hear you!

[Gfretwell]

Post by smullen
I am trying to design this system for show as well as functionality and I
want something that looks a tad nicer than plain old autozone cables.

Look at companies that assemble room sized UPS systems. They have exactly what
you want, some even in shiny tinned copper. A lot of those systems are designed
with a big "show" factor too. When the CEO is getting off a substantial part of
a million bucks they want a show.

[Alan McClure]

I am building a rather large car stereo system and I have three Optima Deep
cycle batteries that I want to custom make bus bars to connect across the
three of them.
I am having trouble finding copper bars in the thickness I want, would
aluminium do the trick?
There will be one for POS and one for NEG and covered by a plexiglass cover
I
made for the battery rack....
The bars will be about 2.25" wide x 1" tall x 21" long and have a hole
tapped in each end for a set scew and 0/1 guage wire and a few smaller holes
on the side for smaller wires for distribution...
Will aluminum work, has anyone here done this before? Also want this to
look nice as its on a truck I enter in shows some times.
Any help would be great

It sounds like you are planning to parallel the batteries directly with the
bus bars. Is that correct? If so I wouldn't recommend it.
ARM

[Alan McClure]

Yes, I want to parallel the batteries to raise the amperage and reserve
capacity vs. the voltage.
Why would you not do this?

Post by Alan McClure

I am building a rather large car stereo system and I have three Optima

Deep

Post by Alan McClure

cycle batteries that I want to custom make bus bars to connect across

the

Post by Alan McClure

three of them.
I am having trouble finding copper bars in the thickness I want, would
aluminium do the trick?
There will be one for POS and one for NEG and covered by a plexiglass

cover

Post by Alan McClure

I
made for the battery rack....
The bars will be about 2.25" wide x 1" tall x 21" long and have a hole
tapped in each end for a set scew and 0/1 guage wire and a few smaller

holes

Post by Alan McClure

on the side for smaller wires for distribution...
Will aluminum work, has anyone here done this before? Also want this to
look nice as its on a truck I enter in shows some times.
Any help would be great

It sounds like you are planning to parallel the batteries directly with

the

Post by Alan McClure
bus bars. Is that correct? If so I wouldn't recommend it.
ARM

It is extremely unlikely that you can find two, and I'd say impossible to
find/build three 12V batteries with EXACTLY the same charge/discharge/
voltage/current characteristics.
Since that is the case, one battery is always going to be discharging into the
other two batteries, possibly at a very high rate.
Multiple battery vehicle electrical systems is not my area of expertise, but
can guarantee that in any viable system the batteries are not paralleled.
ARM

[sQuick..]

Post by Alan McClure
Multiple battery vehicle electrical systems is not my area of expertise, but
can guarantee that in any viable system the batteries are not paralleled.
ARM

Yes they are.

sQuick..



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[e***@bellatlantic.net]

Post by sQuick..

Post by Alan McClure
Multiple battery vehicle electrical systems is not my area of expertise,

but

Post by Alan McClure
can guarantee that in any viable system the batteries are not paralleled.
ARM

Yes they are.
sQuick..

Educate me please. Is that with or without some sort of system to
prevent circulating currents between the batteries?
ARM

The telephone company used to parallel LOTS of lead acid
batteries. Perhaps they still do - I don't know. I think -
but do not know - that submarines use banks of lead acid
batteries in parallel. Why do you guarantee that in any
viable system batteries are not paralleled? What problem
do you foresee if the batteries have slightly different
charge discharge characteristics? Circulating currents -
what do you have in mind??

Are you envisioning a scenario where battery A is charged to
say .2 volts less than battery B, which is in parallel with
battery A, when the charger is removed? So battery B now
charges battery A, raising A's voltage by .1 and decreasing
B's voltage by .1 ? What's so bad about that (other than
the fact that the charger was removed before fully charging
the batteries) ?

You seem so positive about this with the guarantee, so I
want to understand your point of view. I may learn something!

[e***@bellatlantic.net]

Post by e***@bellatlantic.net

Post by sQuick..

Post by Alan McClure
Multiple battery vehicle electrical systems is not my area of expertise,

but

Post by Alan McClure
can guarantee that in any viable system the batteries are not paralleled.
ARM

Yes they are.
sQuick..

Educate me please. Is that with or without some sort of system to
prevent circulating currents between the batteries?
ARM

The telephone company used to parallel LOTS of lead acid
batteries. Perhaps they still do - I don't know. I think -
but do not know - that submarines use banks of lead acid
batteries in parallel. Why do you guarantee that in any
viable system batteries are not paralleled? What problem
do you foresee if the batteries have slightly different
charge discharge characteristics? Circulating currents -
what do you have in mind??
Are you envisioning a scenario where battery A is charged to
say .2 volts less than battery B, which is in parallel with
battery A, when the charger is removed? So battery B now
charges battery A, raising A's voltage by .1 and decreasing
B's voltage by .1 ? What's so bad about that (other than
the fact that the charger was removed before fully charging
the batteries) ?
You seem so positive about this with the guarantee, so I
want to understand your point of view. I may learn something!

As I said in another post, I stand corrected.
See: http://www.dynastybattery.com/cd_dyn/contact/tech_support/7952.htm
As for submarine batteries, I know diesel boats usually had two main batteries
and I think they had provisions to connect them in series. I can't verify one
way or the other that parallel operation was possible or used.
The submarines that I was stationed on only had one main battery,
6000 amp-hours at the 10 hour rate,.126 cells each with about 5 gallons of
electrolyte and a "bubbler" to keep the electrolyte mixed. Each cell weighed
in at just under 2000 lbs.
ARM

Wow. With apologies to Crocodile Dundee, "Now THAT'S a battery!"

[Alan McClure]

Educate me please. Is that with or without some sort of system to
prevent circulating currents between the batteries?
ARM

For the most part in these automotive applications., it would NOT be
a problem... at all. All one needs do is test the batteries
separately often, and insure that they do not have any failed cells.

I stand corrected. A quick Google search on 'battery parallel'
brought up this:
http://www.dynastybattery.com/cd_dyn/contact/tech_support/7952.htm

I learn something every day and I'm not one to say that what I "know" is
necessarily the truth.
ARM

[Nate Weber]

I am building a rather large car stereo system and I have three Optima

Deep

cycle batteries that I want to custom make bus bars to connect across the
three of them.
I am having trouble finding copper bars in the thickness I want, would
aluminium do the trick?
The bars will be about 2.25" wide x 1" tall x 21" long and have a hole
tapped in each end for a set scew and 0/1 guage wire and a few smaller

holes

on the side for smaller wires for distribution...

www.onlinemetals.com has copper bars up to 2" x 4"

Nate


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[DarkMatter]

I am building a rather large car stereo system and I have three Optima Deep
cycle batteries that I want to custom make bus bars to connect across the
three of them.
I am having trouble finding copper bars in the thickness I want, would
aluminium do the trick?

Hahahha... The bar size you give is about 3 times overkill. 3/8"
or a quarter inch thick is plenty. Hell, get it silver plated or clad
even. That is the best bet. But sure, an aluminum version would
work. Those thicknesses you gave are easily available for that media.

Be sure to remove the batteries from the set when testing their
voltages so you can characterize each battery individually, and do
test them often, like once a week. Keep the terminals in top order as
well, and make sure that your re-connections are firm.

There will be one for POS and one for NEG and covered by a plexiglass cover
I
made for the battery rack....
The bars will be about 2.25" wide x 1" tall x 21" long and have a hole
tapped in each end for a set scew and 0/1 guage wire and a few smaller holes
on the side for smaller wires for distribution...
Will aluminum work, has anyone here done this before? Also want this to
look nice as its on a truck I enter in shows some times.

The silver plated/clad copper would sure be cool. You could have a
jeweler engrave it like the old gunsmiths did. For that, clad would
be the only way to go. No cheap, but a definite item to set you apart
with, electrically or otherwise... :]

Any help would be great

Copper may not be as easy to find in that size, but most other
metals are, and a few qualify to carry the load you are talking about
acceptably. Silver, Copper, Aluminum, and Brass would do for valid
choices, with copper and silver being impossible to find without
custom order. Copper strips that are slightly thinner are easier to
find. Getting that clad in silver is fairly easy as well.


It all comes down to how much you want to spend , really, how
refined, and hand crafted the bars need to look... or just rough cut
raw stock? I'm sure you are going to want to de-burr, and polish the
bars to either a brushed or mirror finish. Again, silver clad
copper... Yee Haw! Hey, what about brass!??? As a base metal for the
silver, or alone as the "gold look" version of your quest!

Good luck!

[Gfretwell]

I am still not sure I understand the function of the batteries. How are you
going to keep them charged if your sound system exceeds the output of your
alternator?
If the alternator can keep up, why so many batteries?

[Louis Bybee]

Post by Gfretwell
I am still not sure I understand the function of the batteries. How are you
going to keep them charged if your sound system exceeds the output of your
alternator?
If the alternator can keep up, why so many batteries?

Same concept as motors on a generator.

The booming base sounds place short, but high, current demands on the
electrical system. If the current capacity isn't there the wave forms
produced will be clipped, and distorted sound will be the result. I suspect
that the alternator would be able to keep up with the overall average, but
not the instantaneous peak loads of the "ear killing" sound systems that are
common today.

Louis

[e***@bellatlantic.net]

If you want to see what the vehicle looks like,,,, Below is a link, to our
webpage with a few older pics of it, not showing most of what I have done as
of late...
http://www.teamxratedstl.com/membersrides/stlouismo/chevys10blazer/index.htm
thanks again to those trying to help...

Nice. I hope you'll post pictures of the modification you make
when you install the batteries & the bus bars - and a note here
to let us know!

[Steve Alexanderson]

Aluminum will likely pit and corrode in response to exposure to electrolyte.
Tin plated copper would be better. Stationary batteries generally use lead
coated copper for this purpose, but they're not too showy.

The bars will stress your post seals. Even if relative vibration and
movement is minimized by firmly strapping the batteries to a common rack,
you still have the temperature extremes of a vehicle to consider. Perhaps
curved bars of thinner material, or a braided material.

I am building a rather large car stereo system and I have three Optima

Deep

cycle batteries that I want to custom make bus bars to connect across the
three of them.
I am having trouble finding copper bars in the thickness I want, would
aluminium do the trick?
There will be one for POS and one for NEG and covered by a plexiglass

cover

I
made for the battery rack....
The bars will be about 2.25" wide x 1" tall x 21" long and have a hole
tapped in each end for a set scew and 0/1 guage wire and a few smaller

holes

on the side for smaller wires for distribution...
Will aluminum work, has anyone here done this before? Also want this to
look nice as its on a truck I enter in shows some times.
Any help would be great

[B J Conner]

For a 3000 amp bus I would run LEDs along the bus. you could get the
sequentially operated used in the turn signal of some Cadillacs. The
flashing leds would show the power visually flowing. It would be cooler if
you could vary the speed with either frequency of the music or volume.

Post by smullen
Thanks for taking time to anser my post...
""

What's wrong with just using the battery cables designed for the purpose?

They

are hanging on the wall, made up with ring connectors, at the auto parts

store.
""
For one, I don't really want to go that route.
I am trying to design this system for show as well as functionality and I
want something that looks a tad nicer than plain old autozone cables.
My system will put out over 3000 watts so I'd like is to use a heavy guage
wire, (even if a little bit of over kill) say 0/1 guage that I already
have, from front to rear then bus the 3 batteries in the rear together.
I had some top mount post to use sort of like your idea, but when the three
batteries are mounted together its hard/impossible to fit the battery
terminals on there that have dual 0/1 connections and be able to arc/bend
the cable from terminal to terminal to terminal, with that short of a
radius.
Hence where the Bus bar idea came in... If I can find the right materials,
this should not be that hard.
Scott

[smullen]

OK at this point I have given up on actually getting help... Now I am
reading all these post merley for entertainment...

I love how this guy can tell how much car audio systems in general can put
out... Its clear he has never seen an SPL system and it completly ignorant
of what they can and can't do.

and for the guy with the "Slide Rule" that said it was ""ludicrously
oversized"", if you would have read the entire post and actually considered
what I was attempting to do and all the reasons for what I wanted to do....
In car shows and such, Overkill is extra points...

Most of the people that responeded to this most likley run a ""Hi End""
(note the sarcasim) DelcoBose (or something simmilar) system or went to best
buy and had them drop in a ""High End"" system (nose sarcasim, again) with a
1 or 2 small rockford amps and a 129.00 headunit.....

Keep the Sarcastic posts and non helpful comments comming... I am actually
enjoying this...

Believe me (because of the math you just demonstrated) these systems do

NOT

put out 300watts of power! It's sales hype to impress the children.
Try this. Ask here what they think of loud music. Ask how many have
committed suicide because of the noises in their heads that wont stop.
alt.support.tinnitus

3000 watts at 12 Volts is about 250 amps; double that to allow for the
efficiency of the audio amplifiers and you're
looking at 500 amps. At that point the internal resistance of the
batteries will drop more voltage than the bus bars. A widely used rule
of thumb is to allow 1000 amps per square inch of copper bus ( see the
"Copper Development Association" web site for more elaborate
calculations) - so your proposed bus is ludicrously oversized. Don't
forget the relatively huge voltage drop you're going to get at the
batter clamps and every joint. Every milliohm will cost you half a
volt, and at 12 volts it's not going to take many joints to adversely
affect the efficiency.
This is a poor idea; why not go to some reasonable voltage to keep the
current down to something manageable? Put an alternator and a 240 Vac
system to run the sound system.
If you wanted to listen to really loud music, wouldn't headphones be a
lot more energy efficient? A couple of watts
into headphones would drive your eardrums into your head, and save the
neigborhood from sound pollution.
Bill

Post by smullen
Thanks for taking time to anser my post...
""

What's wrong with just using the battery cables designed for the

purpose?

Post by smullen
They

are hanging on the wall, made up with ring connectors, at the auto

parts

Post by smullen
store.
""
For one, I don't really want to go that route.
I am trying to design this system for show as well as functionality

and I

Post by smullen
want something that looks a tad nicer than plain old autozone cables.
My system will put out over 3000 watts so I'd like is to use a heavy

guage

Post by smullen
wire, (even if a little bit of over kill) say 0/1 guage that I

already

Post by smullen
have, from front to rear then bus the 3 batteries in the rear

together.

Post by smullen
I had some top mount post to use sort of like your idea, but when the

three

Post by smullen
batteries are mounted together its hard/impossible to fit the battery
terminals on there that have dual 0/1 connections and be able to

arc/bend

Post by smullen
the cable from terminal to terminal to terminal, with that short of a
radius.
Hence where the Bus bar idea came in... If I can find the right

materials,

Post by smullen
this should not be that hard.
Scott

[Bill Shymanski]

Post by smullen
and for the guy with the "Slide Rule" that said it was ""ludicrously
oversized"", if you would have read the entire post and actually considered
what I was attempting to do and all the reasons for what I wanted to do....
In car shows and such, Overkill is extra points...

In engineering, overkill costs you the tender.

For example, I know of at least one multi-million dollar tender for
transit busses that a vendor lost because the connectors in the wiring
harness were *slightly* better (and *slightly* more costly) than the
connectors in the competitor's busses.

Why stop at "ludicrously oversized"? You can get 12 inch Schedule 80
copper pipe, you know.
( I've seen this used in places where its not ludicrously oversized,
though, at least not as long as the cooling water stays on).

I would never say that sound pressure levels are the stupidest form of
competition ever devised by the mind of man, but then I know I don't
know of many that are greatly stupider.

Bill

[DarkMatter]

On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:37:36 -0500, "Bill Shymanski"

Post by Bill Shymanski
stupider.

"Stupider"??? Hahahaha... Try "more stupid" next time. You won't
look so much more stupid than you really are.

[Hippie]

***@aol.com

You are part of the problem (along with others like flakie, bushgoode)
Try and stay on topic and ignore those that can't stay on topic.

What's wrong with just using the battery cables designed for the purpose? They
are hanging on the wall, made up with ring connectors, at the auto parts store.

[DarkMatter]

Post by Hippie
You are part of the problem (along with others like flakie, bushgoode)
Try and stay on topic and ignore those that can't stay on topic.

your knowledge of usenet, and particularly of this group borders on
fucking nil, boy.