Discussion:
Filament voltage standards for tubes (valves)
(too old to reply)
Roby
2005-05-02 23:20:30 UTC
Permalink
Anybody know why there were different filament voltages for rectifiers
(5 volts) and various small-signal tubes (6.3 or 12.6 volts).

Why didn't one size fit all?

Roby
VWWall
2005-05-03 00:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roby
Anybody know why there were different filament voltages for rectifiers
(5 volts) and various small-signal tubes (6.3 or 12.6 volts).
Why didn't one size fit all?
Roby
There are a lot more voltages than those for filaments and heaters for
vacuum tubes. Some of the original tubes were designed to run from
batteries, and their voltages started at 1.5V, the so-called A battery.
6.3 V tube heaters ran from early automobile batteries with 3 cells in
series. The 12.6 V tubes were for the present generation automobiles
with 6 cell, (12V), batteries. The 5V for rectifier filaments was just a
convenient voltage for a winding on the power transformer.

There are a few that ran at 2.5V, 2.8V, and a bunch of rectifiers at 5V.
There were even 18.9, 25, 35, 45, 50, 70, and 117V heaters. The most
famous of these were the ones used in the AD/DC five tube receivers in
which the heaters were all in series across the 117V line.

When I worked at Bell Labs in 1950, one of my jobs was pumping the tubes
that were used in TAT3, one of the early telephone trans-Atlantic
cables. It had vacuum tube repeaters about every forty miles. The
heaters of all of these were connected in series! It required a few
kilovolts DC at each end. The amplifiers were powered by the voltage
drop across the heaters. These heaters ran on about 24V DC for each tube.
--
Virg Wall
John Gilmer
2005-05-03 03:17:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
When I worked at Bell Labs in 1950,
That was back in the West Street era. That must have been a fun place to
work back then. Just a few minutes by subway to the Theatre District.
VWWall
2005-05-03 15:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Gilmer
Post by VWWall
When I worked at Bell Labs in 1950,
That was back in the West Street era. That must have been a fun place to
work back then. Just a few minutes by subway to the Theatre District.
Indeed! Just a short walk to Greenwich Village and some of the well
known clubs that had lunch specials. The ferry ride from Hoboken was
fun also. I moved to Murrey Hill in 1950 and then to California, (North
American Aviation), in 1951. I miss NYC, but wouldn't want to live
there. :-)
--
Virg Wall
Andrew Gabriel
2005-05-03 18:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
There are a lot more voltages than those for filaments and heaters for
vacuum tubes. Some of the original tubes were designed to run from
batteries, and their voltages started at 1.5V, the so-called A battery.
6.3 V tube heaters ran from early automobile batteries with 3 cells in
series. The 12.6 V tubes were for the present generation automobiles
with 6 cell, (12V), batteries. The 5V for rectifier filaments was just a
convenient voltage for a winding on the power transformer.
There are a few that ran at 2.5V, 2.8V, and a bunch of rectifiers at 5V.
There were even 18.9, 25, 35, 45, 50, 70, and 117V heaters. The most
famous of these were the ones used in the AD/DC five tube receivers in
which the heaters were all in series across the 117V line.
Popular in Europe (don't know about US, 120V would be a problem)
were the 300mA heater tubes/valves, which were all designed to
run in series (part numbers all starting 'P'). TV sets with perhaps
15 tubes had them all in series across the mains, with a power
resistor to make up any difference between the mains voltage and
the total heater voltage and a thermister to limit the inrush
current. Different sized tubes/valves used different voltages,
so that the power required was delivered from the 300mA current.
There was also another standardised current which I don't recall
clearly -- might have been 150mA, but the the 300mA ones were far
more common in commercial products.
--
Andrew Gabriel
Michael Moroney
2005-05-03 20:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
There are a lot more voltages than those for filaments and heaters for
vacuum tubes. Some of the original tubes were designed to run from
batteries, and their voltages started at 1.5V, the so-called A battery.
Was the A battery ever a physical size (like AA, C, D cells) or just a
designation for the filament battery?
Post by VWWall
When I worked at Bell Labs in 1950, one of my jobs was pumping the tubes
that were used in TAT3, one of the early telephone trans-Atlantic
cables. It had vacuum tube repeaters about every forty miles. The
heaters of all of these were connected in series! It required a few
kilovolts DC at each end. The amplifiers were powered by the voltage
drop across the heaters. These heaters ran on about 24V DC for each tube.
Wow. Whose job was it to replace a burned-out tube? :-) How many voice
channels could one circuit handle and how long did they last? I'd hate
to calculate a MTBF for a thousands-mile circuit with a tube amp every
40 miles...
--
-Mike
VWWall
2005-05-03 20:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Moroney
Post by VWWall
There are a lot more voltages than those for filaments and heaters for
vacuum tubes. Some of the original tubes were designed to run from
batteries, and their voltages started at 1.5V, the so-called A battery.
Was the A battery ever a physical size (like AA, C, D cells) or just a
designation for the filament battery?
It was the designation for the filament supply. The "plate voltage" was
supplied by the B battery, and the bias voltage was from the C battery.
Post by Michael Moroney
Post by VWWall
When I worked at Bell Labs in 1950, one of my jobs was pumping the tubes
that were used in TAT3, one of the early telephone trans-Atlantic
cables. It had vacuum tube repeaters about every forty miles. The
heaters of all of these were connected in series! It required a few
kilovolts DC at each end. The amplifiers were powered by the voltage
drop across the heaters. These heaters ran on about 24V DC for each tube.
Wow. Whose job was it to replace a burned-out tube? :-) How many voice
channels could one circuit handle and how long did they last? I'd hate
to calculate a MTBF for a thousands-mile circuit with a tube amp every
40 miles...
From:

http://www.iscpc.org/cabledb/atlan_page.htm

TAT-3
Transatlantic No. 3 Out-of-service: retired 1986, 23 years of Service
Tuckerton, New Jersey, U.S.A. -- Widemouth Bay, England - 6,515km at 414
+ 414 KHz
Maintenance Authorities: AT & T, British Post Office

http://www.tycotelecom.com/AboutUs/HistoryTelecom.asp

In 1962, they invented SD analog technology, which enabled
bi-directional transmissions rather than requiring a separate cable for
each "direction" of traffic. This technology, which also increased
bandwidth, was used by Tyco Telecommunications to build TAT-3, the third
transatlantic telephone cable, and allowed simultaneous transmission of
148 circuits.

Now, of course, fibre optic cables are used.

I skipped that part of technology, but worked in communication
satellites since 1960. They still use vacuum tubes--TWTA's,
(Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers), as the RF output amplifiers.
--
Virg Wall
Floyd L. Davidson
2005-05-03 22:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
I skipped that part of technology, but worked in communication
satellites since 1960. They still use vacuum tubes--TWTA's,
(Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers), as the RF output amplifiers.
I wouldn't imagine there are too many TWT's left, though there
could be. Virtually everything I know of (a few hundred earth
stations in Alaska) has long since been converted to Solid State
Power Amplifiers (SSPA's).
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ***@barrow.com
Michael A. Terrell
2005-05-04 17:34:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
I skipped that part of technology, but worked in communication
satellites since 1960. They still use vacuum tubes--TWTA's,
(Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers), as the RF output amplifiers.
I wouldn't imagine there are too many TWT's left, though there
could be. Virtually everything I know of (a few hundred earth
stations in Alaska) has long since been converted to Solid State
Power Amplifiers (SSPA's).
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
TWTs are still used for sat uplink and higher power ENG vans. CATV
AMS relays used them, but they are probably being phased out.

There is supposed to be an abandoned C-band uplink near here, and I
think it was the one used by "Captain Midnight" to jam HBO years ago.
The company went out of business and I'm told there is still a chain
link fence with barb wire around the studio building and large AFC
transmit dish. I'm trying to track it down because its the only
Microdyne built Sat uplink, serial #1 for my collection of microwave
equipment.
--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Floyd L. Davidson
2005-05-04 18:18:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A. Terrell
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
I wouldn't imagine there are too many TWT's left, though there
could be. Virtually everything I know of (a few hundred earth
stations in Alaska) has long since been converted to Solid State
Power Amplifiers (SSPA's).
...
Post by Michael A. Terrell
TWTs are still used for sat uplink and higher power ENG vans. CATV
AMS relays used them, but they are probably being phased out.
Any place where reduced maintenance is a cost savings, will
phase them out! :-) That is basically the reason SSPA's are
universal in Alaska now, because of the number of unmanned sites
that are so expensive to put a pair of hands on the equipment.
Post by Michael A. Terrell
There is supposed to be an abandoned C-band uplink near here, and I
think it was the one used by "Captain Midnight" to jam HBO years ago.
The company went out of business and I'm told there is still a chain
link fence with barb wire around the studio building and large AFC
transmit dish. I'm trying to track it down because its the only
Microdyne built Sat uplink, serial #1 for my collection of microwave
equipment.
Ouch. We used to have a lot of jokes about "Serial Number One",
because we had a lot of them, literally (and figuratively). Our
first Scientific Atlanta SCPC equipment, installed in the
mid-70's, had 155 precision Bourne trippots per channel spread
across three circuit packs. The manuals originally gave
instructions for adjusting 3 of them, and later 3 others were
added. It was essentially a breadboard design rushed directly
into production because the State of Alaska was willing to buy
it *now*.

But *that* particular ES would indeed be a real catch!
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ***@barrow.com
VWWall
2005-05-04 18:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A. Terrell
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
I skipped that part of technology, but worked in communication
satellites since 1960. They still use vacuum tubes--TWTA's,
(Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers), as the RF output amplifiers.
I wouldn't imagine there are too many TWT's left, though there
could be. Virtually everything I know of (a few hundred earth
stations in Alaska) has long since been converted to Solid State
Power Amplifiers (SSPA's).
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
TWTs are still used for sat uplink and higher power ENG vans. CATV
AMS relays used them, but they are probably being phased out.
Almost all communication satellites still use TWTAs as the output
amplifier in each transponder. There is still not a wide-band solid
state solution for K band. This is still one of the main devices
limiting the transponder life. Many people, including myself, have
spent many hours devising the best cathode system for long life. It is
not nearly as simple as running at the lowest temperature possible.
There are still many myths in the field, but a lot of progress has been
made. Orbiting satellites are almost as hard to repair as undersea
repeaters. :-)
Post by Michael A. Terrell
There is supposed to be an abandoned C-band uplink near here, and I
think it was the one used by "Captain Midnight" to jam HBO years ago.
The company went out of business and I'm told there is still a chain
link fence with barb wire around the studio building and large AFC
transmit dish. I'm trying to track it down because its the only
Microdyne built Sat uplink, serial #1 for my collection of microwave
equipment.
I still have some ancient tubes in my garage, including several versions
of the 418 microwave tube built in a standard glass envelope.
It had the fine grid structure, (gold plated), but was made with several
internal geometries to check on cross-modulation.

I also have a dozen "acorn tubes", a WE 717A "doorknob" tube and a
couple of the tubes used in proximity fuses.

I worked on the early version of the tunable magnetron for the Nike
search radar, but those were too big to take home samples! :-) That was
one case where cathode activity was not a problem. You actually turned
off the heater power when the magnetron was operating--the electron back
bombardment was enough to keep it hot, sometimes even melt it!

Vacuum tubes will be with us for awhile. Every microwave oven, most TV
sets, most computer monitors, and almost all radars still use them.

I'm not downgrading solid state; I taught a couple of courses in
transistor electronics for UCLA Extension, when solid state was just
getting started. I even designed part of the first almost all solid
state radar in 1953 at North American. It still used a vacuum tube
magnetron, and CRT, but all the rest was solid state including a mag-amp
modulator for the magnetron, replacing the usual thyratron.
--
Virg Wall, K6EVE
Floyd L. Davidson
2005-05-03 21:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Moroney
Post by VWWall
When I worked at Bell Labs in 1950, one of my jobs was pumping the tubes
that were used in TAT3, one of the early telephone trans-Atlantic
cables. It had vacuum tube repeaters about every forty miles. The
heaters of all of these were connected in series! It required a few
kilovolts DC at each end. The amplifiers were powered by the voltage
drop across the heaters. These heaters ran on about 24V DC for each tube.
Wow. Whose job was it to replace a burned-out tube? :-) How many voice
channels could one circuit handle and how long did they last? I'd hate
to calculate a MTBF for a thousands-mile circuit with a tube amp every
40 miles...
WECO, the manufacturing arm of the Bell System, made some
equipment that used good design engineering to a degree that
was sometimes mind boggling.

How about vacuum tube amplifiers where the tubes were *very*
likely to last 20 years! I never worked on a submarine
cable, so I can't speak to the specifics of the situation above,
but I did see tubes that were more than 25 years old and still
functioning!

The basic trick was to to use 24 volt filaments, and then
actually run them at seriously reduced filament voltages. That
doesn't allow for much gain, but when only 1-6 dB was needed
needed, they didn't design a circuit with 30 dB of gain and cut
it back. They reduced the filament voltage until the tube would
barely warm up, barely have any gain, and *never* wear out!

The A4 Channel Bank used with L carrier starting back in the
late 1930's was an example where that was done. I don't remember
exactly which tube were used, but they were 300 series triodes,
like 310's, 311's, or 312's, if I remember right.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ***@barrow.com
VWWall
2005-05-03 21:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
WECO, the manufacturing arm of the Bell System, made some
equipment that used good design engineering to a degree that
was sometimes mind boggling.
These particular tubes were asembled at Bell Labs West Street, which is
why, as a new junior engineer, got the job of pumping and activating them!
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
How about vacuum tube amplifiers where the tubes were *very*
likely to last 20 years! I never worked on a submarine
cable, so I can't speak to the specifics of the situation above,
but I did see tubes that were more than 25 years old and still
functioning!
These were based on a design that had been on life-test for over twenty
years.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
The basic trick was to to use 24 volt filaments, and then
actually run them at seriously reduced filament voltages. That
doesn't allow for much gain, but when only 1-6 dB was needed
needed, they didn't design a circuit with 30 dB of gain and cut
it back. They reduced the filament voltage until the tube would
barely warm up, barely have any gain, and *never* wear out!
The filament or heater voltage has nothing to do with the gain!!!
An amplifier with 1-6 dB gain would be worthless!! Read some basic
electronic books.

You've got the basic physics very wrong here. A cathode, or filament
emits electrons, and has to run at a temperature where this happens.
If the temperature is too low, the cathode surface will not emit the
ammount of electrons to support the tube's current. If too hot, the
active part of the cathode is depleted rapidly. Another problem for
long life is the poisoning of the cathode surface by residual material
within the tube.
--
Virg Wall
Floyd L. Davidson
2005-05-03 22:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
The basic trick was to to use 24 volt filaments, and then
actually run them at seriously reduced filament voltages. That
doesn't allow for much gain, but when only 1-6 dB was needed
needed, they didn't design a circuit with 30 dB of gain and cut
it back. They reduced the filament voltage until the tube would
barely warm up, barely have any gain, and *never* wear out!
The filament or heater voltage has nothing to do with the gain!!!
An amplifier with 1-6 dB gain would be worthless!! Read some
basic electronic books.
Giggle snort...

Some circuit don't require *any* gain. And if you don't think
the filament voltage would affect gain (technically it is the
transconductance that changes, but that amounts to gain in
practical circuits), just try running most tubes at say about
1/2 the normal filament voltage and see how much gain they
(don't) have!
Post by VWWall
You've got the basic physics very wrong here. A cathode, or
filament emits electrons, and has to run at a temperature where
this happens.
Exactly. Now... remember all the nice little "cathode
activity" tests that were built into many circuits in L carrier
systems? Put a voltmeter across a resistor in series with the
plate circuit, thus measuring plate current, and then lower the
filament voltage a specified amount. The plate current will
drop, and if it goes too far down, the tube should be replaced
because the "cathode activity" is too low.
Post by VWWall
If the temperature is too low, the cathode surface will not emit
the ammount of electrons to support the tube's current. If too
hot, the active part of the cathode is depleted rapidly.
And of course if a circuit is designed to operate at the lowest
functional cathode surface temperature, the tube will last
*significantly* longer than if it the normal temperature is
maintained.
Post by VWWall
Another problem for long life is the poisoning of the cathode
surface by residual material within the tube.
More significant with some tubes than with others though.
"Gassy" tubes were common.

One cause of such failure, with certain types of tubes, was
applying high voltages to various elements before the
filament/cathode was fully up to temperature. Generally that
applied only to transmitting tubes, but was also significant
with some receiving tubes such as the 416 lighthouse microwave
tubes that were used in the TD-2 microwave systems installed in
the late 40's and early 50's which changed the nature of long
distance in the Bell System.

For such tubes a switch was provided to turn on filaments first
and then, after a delay, another switch for the high voltages.
Failure to wait long enough would destroy a tube that had more
than perhaps 4-6 months of filament time. Some equipment had
timers to ensure the delay. Some equipment used variacs to
slowly bring up the voltages and allow precisely setting them
too. Filament voltage on many transmitting tubes is very
critical, as if it is slightly low performance suffers and if it
is slightly high the tube's life is shortened significantly.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ***@barrow.com
VWWall
2005-05-03 23:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
The basic trick was to to use 24 volt filaments, and then
actually run them at seriously reduced filament voltages. That
doesn't allow for much gain, but when only 1-6 dB was needed
needed, they didn't design a circuit with 30 dB of gain and cut
it back. They reduced the filament voltage until the tube would
barely warm up, barely have any gain, and *never* wear out!
The filament or heater voltage has nothing to do with the gain!!!
An amplifier with 1-6 dB gain would be worthless!! Read some
basic electronic books.
Giggle snort...
LOL is more like it!!
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Some circuit don't require *any* gain. And if you don't think
the filament voltage would affect gain (technically it is the
transconductance that changes, but that amounts to gain in
practical circuits), just try running most tubes at say about
1/2 the normal filament voltage and see how much gain they
(don't) have!
Some circuits don't even require tubes. :-)
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
You've got the basic physics very wrong here. A cathode, or
filament emits electrons, and has to run at a temperature where
this happens.
Exactly. Now... remember all the nice little "cathode
activity" tests that were built into many circuits in L carrier
systems? Put a voltmeter across a resistor in series with the
plate circuit, thus measuring plate current, and then lower the
filament voltage a specified amount. The plate current will
drop, and if it goes too far down, the tube should be replaced
because the "cathode activity" is too low.
Every drug store had a testor like this in the 40-50's. A very few
actually measured gm.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
If the temperature is too low, the cathode surface will not emit
the ammount of electrons to support the tube's current. If too
hot, the active part of the cathode is depleted rapidly.
And of course if a circuit is designed to operate at the lowest
functional cathode surface temperature, the tube will last
*significantly* longer than if it the normal temperature is
maintained.
The circuit desigh has nothing to to with the "lowest functional cathode
surface temperature", whatever that is.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
Another problem for long life is the poisoning of the cathode
surface by residual material within the tube.
More significant with some tubes than with others though.
"Gassy" tubes were common.
Which is why getters are used and during activation, induction heaters
are used to out gas all tube elements.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
One cause of such failure, with certain types of tubes, was
applying high voltages to various elements before the
filament/cathode was fully up to temperature. Generally that
applied only to transmitting tubes, but was also significant
with some receiving tubes such as the 416 lighthouse microwave
tubes that were used in the TD-2 microwave systems installed in
the late 40's and early 50's which changed the nature of long
distance in the Bell System.
The TD-2 tubes has such a small cathode-grid spacing that the grid
could pick up cathode material and become emissive. I used similar
tubes in the design of the ARSR, (Air Route Survellance Radar).
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
For such tubes a switch was provided to turn on filaments first
and then, after a delay, another switch for the high voltages.
Failure to wait long enough would destroy a tube that had more
than perhaps 4-6 months of filament time. Some equipment had
timers to ensure the delay. Some equipment used variacs to
slowly bring up the voltages and allow precisely setting them
too. Filament voltage on many transmitting tubes is very
critical, as if it is slightly low performance suffers and if it
is slightly high the tube's life is shortened significantly.
Really? ;-)
--
Virg Wall, P.E.
K6EVE, FCC Radio Telegraph Operator's Certificate T2-HQ-8354
Floyd L. Davidson
2005-05-04 00:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
The basic trick was to to use 24 volt filaments, and then
actually run them at seriously reduced filament voltages. That
doesn't allow for much gain, but when only 1-6 dB was needed
needed, they didn't design a circuit with 30 dB of gain and cut
it back. They reduced the filament voltage until the tube would
barely warm up, barely have any gain, and *never* wear out!
The filament or heater voltage has nothing to do with the gain!!!
An amplifier with 1-6 dB gain would be worthless!! Read some
basic electronic books.
Giggle snort...
LOL is more like it!!
Ain't that the truth. At least you gave up on being serious,
for the most part.
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Some circuit don't require *any* gain. And if you don't think
the filament voltage would affect gain (technically it is the
transconductance that changes, but that amounts to gain in
practical circuits), just try running most tubes at say about
1/2 the normal filament voltage and see how much gain they
(don't) have!
Some circuits don't even require tubes. :-)
Being silly, are you? There are many applications where tubes
are used in circuits that do not require gain. And as little a
1-6 dB is of course *very* common in telecom designs.
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
You've got the basic physics very wrong here. A cathode, or
filament emits electrons, and has to run at a temperature where
this happens.
Exactly. Now... remember all the nice little "cathode
activity" tests that were built into many circuits in L carrier
systems? Put a voltmeter across a resistor in series with the
plate circuit, thus measuring plate current, and then lower the
filament voltage a specified amount. The plate current will
drop, and if it goes too far down, the tube should be replaced
because the "cathode activity" is too low.
Every drug store had a testor like this in the 40-50's. A very
few actually measured gm.
Yes, many of them did in fact test tubes with something very
similar to that.

The point to learn though, is that your original statement above
is incorrect, because *you* got the physics wrong.
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
If the temperature is too low, the cathode surface will not emit
the ammount of electrons to support the tube's current. If too
hot, the active part of the cathode is depleted rapidly.
And of course if a circuit is designed to operate at the lowest
functional cathode surface temperature, the tube will last
*significantly* longer than if it the normal temperature is
maintained.
The circuit desigh has nothing to to with the "lowest functional
cathode surface temperature", whatever that is.
Look, if you don't have a clue about how any of these designs
worked, and never saw one of them, just say so. But cease
making abjectly stupid statements.

The purpose of reducing the filament voltage was *precisely* to
lower the filament/cathode (whatever the electron emitting
element was) to a temperature that would just barely allow it to
function. That resulted in an extremely stable long lived
vacuum tube circuit, as opposed to one that required the tube to
be changed every few years.
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
Another problem for long life is the poisoning of the cathode
surface by residual material within the tube.
More significant with some tubes than with others though.
"Gassy" tubes were common.
Which is why getters are used and during activation, induction
heaters are used to out gas all tube elements.
Yep.
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
One cause of such failure, with certain types of tubes, was
applying high voltages to various elements before the
filament/cathode was fully up to temperature. Generally that
applied only to transmitting tubes, but was also significant
with some receiving tubes such as the 416 lighthouse microwave
tubes that were used in the TD-2 microwave systems installed in
the late 40's and early 50's which changed the nature of long
distance in the Bell System.
The TD-2 tubes has such a small cathode-grid spacing that the grid
could pick up cathode material and become emissive. I used similar
tubes in the design of the ARSR, (Air Route Survellance Radar).
That and the extremely thin layer of oxide on the cathode. That
layer was something like 0.0005 inches. The cathode to grid
spacing was only 0.0006 inches.

Yes, 416B's were popular. But none of the other uses had the
massive effects that the design and implementation of the TD-2
microwave network that was installed by the Bell System. The
difference was that in the 30's and 40's, as we can still see in
vintage movies, everyone who made a long distance call to
grandma had to shout "Hello Hello, can you hear me!" into the
phone three times before grandma realized that someone actually
was on the line. By 1955 or so it was possible to almost speak
normally on a cross-country telephone call from just about
anywhere to anywhere else in the country. That was enabled by
the 416B tube.

(And is was Pulse Code Modulation, finally fully implemented
1980's made it possible to whisper into a phone and be heard!)
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
For such tubes a switch was provided to turn on filaments first
and then, after a delay, another switch for the high voltages.
Failure to wait long enough would destroy a tube that had more
than perhaps 4-6 months of filament time. Some equipment had
timers to ensure the delay. Some equipment used variacs to
slowly bring up the voltages and allow precisely setting them
too. Filament voltage on many transmitting tubes is very
critical, as if it is slightly low performance suffers and if it
is slightly high the tube's life is shortened significantly.
Really? ;-)
Matter of fact. Even if you had forgotten about it (or never
knew for all I can tell).
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ***@barrow.com
VWWall
2005-05-04 03:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Look, if you don't have a clue about how any of these designs
worked, and never saw one of them, just say so. But cease
making abjectly stupid statements.
How many systems have *you* designed?
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
The purpose of reducing the filament voltage was *precisely* to
lower the filament/cathode (whatever the electron emitting
element was) to a temperature that would just barely allow it to
function. That resulted in an extremely stable long lived
vacuum tube circuit, as opposed to one that required the tube to
be changed every few years.
There is an optimum temperature and it's not where the cathode "just
barely functions".
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
with some receiving tubes such as the 416 lighthouse microwave
tubes that were used in the TD-2 microwave systems installed in
the late 40's and early 50's which changed the nature of long
distance in the Bell System.
The TD-2 tubes has such a small cathode-grid spacing that the grid
could pick up cathode material and become emissive. I used similar
tubes in the design of the ARSR, (Air Route Survellance Radar).
That and the extremely thin layer of oxide on the cathode. That
layer was something like 0.0005 inches. The cathode to grid
spacing was only 0.0006 inches.
Close, but no cigar! See:

Morton,J.A., "A Microwave Triode for Radio Relay". Bell Laboratories
Record, May, 1949.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Yes, 416B's were popular. But none of the other uses had the
massive effects that the design and implementation of the TD-2
microwave network that was installed by the Bell System.
The L-3 Coax system worked pretty well, too.

One of the neat things about the TD-2, was that it was single sideband
and put into use with only one sideband used. When traffic warranted
it, a simple change doubled the capacity.

The three stage 416A amplifier had a gain of 18 db at a bandwidth of 20
megacycles at the 0.1 db points. The output was set at 27 dbm.
--
Virg Wall--Long time vacuum tube designer.
Floyd L. Davidson
2005-05-04 06:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Look, if you don't have a clue about how any of these designs
worked, and never saw one of them, just say so. But cease
making abjectly stupid statements.
How many systems have *you* designed?
What *I* have done has nothing to do with your babbling!
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
The purpose of reducing the filament voltage was *precisely* to
lower the filament/cathode (whatever the electron emitting
element was) to a temperature that would just barely allow it to
function. That resulted in an extremely stable long lived
vacuum tube circuit, as opposed to one that required the tube to
be changed every few years.
There is an optimum temperature and it's not where the cathode
"just barely functions".
Where ever did you get the clue?

I said the temperature is dropped to where it barely functions.
That certainly would not likely be optimum! But optimum in one
respect does not necessarily equate to optimum in another. If
you want optimum lifespan for the tube you do not optimize for
maximum gain, cathode emissions, or any number of other equally
life shortening parameters.
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by VWWall
The TD-2 tubes has such a small cathode-grid spacing that the grid
could pick up cathode material and become emissive. I used similar
tubes in the design of the ARSR, (Air Route Survellance Radar).
That and the extremely thin layer of oxide on the cathode. That
layer was something like 0.0005 inches. The cathode to grid
spacing was only 0.0006 inches.
Morton,J.A., "A Microwave Triode for Radio Relay". Bell
Laboratories Record, May, 1949.
Your cigar is wet. Citing something that doesn't support your
claims is *not* going to endear you to anyone. Not quoting
anything to support what you claim, but instead rattling off
other interesting but irrelevant information from your source is
just nonsense on your part.

See "Principles of Electricity applied to Telephone and
Telegraph Work", 1953 Edition. p239.

"The oxide coating of the cathode is .0005" thick."
"The cathode-grid spacing is .0006"."
"The grid wirs are spaced a thousand to the inch and
are .0003" in diameter."
"The plate-grid spacing is .012"."
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Yes, 416B's were popular. But none of the other uses had the
massive effects that the design and implementation of the TD-2
microwave network that was installed by the Bell System.
The L-3 Coax system worked pretty well, too.
But distinctly did *not* allow the Bell System to network
the entire country, _until_ they put it on microwave. Keep in
mind that L carrier was designed in the 1930's. It was not
the innovation that had the most dramatic effect, though it
certainly added to it.
Post by VWWall
One of the neat things about the TD-2, was that it was single
sideband and put into use with only one sideband used. When
traffic warranted it, a simple change doubled the capacity.
Dual redundant channels was not exactly new or inovative.
Post by VWWall
The three stage 416A amplifier had a gain of 18 db at a
bandwidth of 20 megacycles at the 0.1 db points. The output was
set at 27 dbm.
Hey, you made fun of amplifiers with 1-6 dB of gain... are you
aware that the last stage in that particular bit of hardware is
an amplifier with only 3 dB of gain? And the second stage is 6
dB? Only the first stage fits what you claimed... :-)
Post by VWWall
Virg Wall--Long time vacuum tube designer.
Virg, we're all getting old and forgetting a lot of this
stuff... *Don't* go on memory. Look things up and verify
what you think you remember before posting it.

I don't know about you, but I'm *not* sorry that I don't work
with vacuum tubes any more. In fact, the same goes for
individual components, be they transistors or even IC's. I like
working with entire card level components, with embedded
micropressors...

When I was a teenager I dreamed up designs that would have
filled three floors of a large building, and required all of
Hoover Dam to power. I could only dream about them. Today I
whip something like that, totally in software, in an hour.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ***@barrow.com
Repeating Rifle
2005-05-04 05:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Being silly, are you? There are many applications where tubes
are used in circuits that do not require gain. And as little a
1-6 dB is of course *very* common in telecom designs.
A lot depends upon what you mean by "gain." A cathode follower, the
equivalent of a modern emitter follower, had a voltage gain less than one.
Nevertheless, it provided a power gain from a high impedance source because
it can drive a lower impedance load than the source could.

Bill
Bill Shymanski
2005-05-07 00:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Exactly. Now... remember all the nice little "cathode
activity" tests that were built into many circuits in L carrier
systems? Put a voltmeter across a resistor in series with the
plate circuit, thus measuring plate current, and then lower the
filament voltage a specified amount. The plate current will
drop, and if it goes too far down, the tube should be replaced
because the "cathode activity" is too low.
Every drug store had a testor like this in the 40-50's. A very few
actually measured gm.
I personally used a drug store tube tester as late as 1973. And I
worked at a steel mill where the instrument shop kept a tube tester
around till well into the 1990's, because there was at least one
tube-based amplifier in the plant.

Bill
Floyd L. Davidson
2005-05-07 02:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shymanski
I personally used a drug store tube tester as late as 1973. And I
worked at a steel mill where the instrument shop kept a tube tester
around till well into the 1990's, because there was at least one
tube-based amplifier in the plant.
The problem with tube testers, and the drug store variety were
by far the worst, was that they rarely indicated whether a tube
was good or bad! I.e., only if the filament was burned out or
there was an internal short, was the "bad" indication was valid.

Otherwise there was rarely a better test for a vacuum tube than
to plug it into the circuit in question, and see if it worked.
If it didn't, it might (or might not) work in another circuit.

That was true of brand new tubes straight out of the box just as
much as for tubes in operating equipment.

Which is to say, rather than a tube tester, the usual practice
was to have a large caddy of tubes for use as "swapping spares".
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ***@barrow.com
John Gilmer
2005-05-07 17:54:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
The problem with tube testers, and the drug store variety were
by far the worst, was that they rarely indicated whether a tube
was good or bad! I.e., only if the filament was burned out or
there was an internal short, was the "bad" indication was valid.
The ones I remember did a lot more than that. They had a meter and at the
minimum determined whether the tube could function at least as a diode.
Some of the drug store types were equivalent to the testers used by
servicemen.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Otherwise there was rarely a better test for a vacuum tube than
to plug it into the circuit in question, and see if it worked.
If it didn't, it might (or might not) work in another circuit.
That seemed to be the folklore.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
That was true of brand new tubes straight out of the box just as
much as for tubes in operating equipment.
Well, that partly explains how the Japs god ahead of us in consumer
electronics. With reasonable quality control one should be able to mix and
match.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Which is to say, rather than a tube tester, the usual practice
was to have a large caddy of tubes for use as "swapping spares".
Aside from everything else, it's a lot quicker to just exchange tubes than
plug in a tester and test the tube.

If quality control was really that bad switching tubes could lead to nothing
at all working.
BFoelsch
2005-05-07 19:22:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Gilmer
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
The problem with tube testers, and the drug store variety were
by far the worst, was that they rarely indicated whether a tube
was good or bad! I.e., only if the filament was burned out or
there was an internal short, was the "bad" indication was valid.
The ones I remember did a lot more than that. They had a meter and at the
minimum determined whether the tube could function at least as a diode.
Some of the drug store types were equivalent to the testers used by
servicemen.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Otherwise there was rarely a better test for a vacuum tube than
to plug it into the circuit in question, and see if it worked.
If it didn't, it might (or might not) work in another circuit.
That seemed to be the folklore.
That was true enough. Due to availability issues, some tubes had way more
performance than the circuit needed and would work forever. Other designs
needed fresh tubes to work properly.

Best example I ever saw was the OLD Western Electric Theatre amplifer, I
think it was the type 42. Used the 205 triode as the power amplifier and as
the rectifiers, with grid and plate strapped. WE told you to run the 205s in
the amplifier position until they were unsatisfactory, then put the spent
tubes in the rectifier sockets. Whn the no longer worked as rectifiers they
were COMPLETELY shot!
Post by John Gilmer
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
That was true of brand new tubes straight out of the box just as
much as for tubes in operating equipment.
I never experienced this, at least not in entertainment equipment. Some test
equipment used selected tubes, but by and large BRAND NAME new tubes were
pretty much interchangeable. There was a big scandal in the late 1950's,
however, where businesses were buying up used tubes, washing them,
relabelling them and selling them as new. That may be the origin of that
story.
Post by John Gilmer
Well, that partly explains how the Japs god ahead of us in consumer
electronics. With reasonable quality control one should be able to mix and
match.
As stated above, I never observed any real QC issues with name brand
product.
Post by John Gilmer
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Which is to say, rather than a tube tester, the usual practice
was to have a large caddy of tubes for use as "swapping spares".
Aside from everything else, it's a lot quicker to just exchange tubes than
plug in a tester and test the tube.
If quality control was really that bad switching tubes could lead to nothing
at all working.
Floyd L. Davidson
2005-05-08 18:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by BFoelsch
Post by John Gilmer
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Otherwise there was rarely a better test for a vacuum tube than
to plug it into the circuit in question, and see if it worked.
If it didn't, it might (or might not) work in another circuit.
That seemed to be the folklore.
That was true enough. Due to availability issues, some tubes had way more
performance than the circuit needed and would work forever. Other designs
needed fresh tubes to work properly.
It wasn't so much "way more performance" as it was conservative
circuit design engineering. Using two stages, rather than one,
to get any given amount of gain and using feedback to stabilize
the entire circuit are examples. With good design most circuits
can operate without such great sensitivity the tube
characteristics. But that wasn't true of all circuits, and of
course it cost money to implement, so it didn't always happen.
Post by BFoelsch
Best example I ever saw was the OLD Western Electric Theatre amplifer, I
think it was the type 42. Used the 205 triode as the power amplifier and as
the rectifiers, with grid and plate strapped. WE told you to run the 205s in
the amplifier position until they were unsatisfactory, then put the spent
tubes in the rectifier sockets. Whn the no longer worked as rectifiers they
were COMPLETELY shot!
A great example. WECO was famous for such designs. Working on
the telephone carrier system they designed back in the 30's was
still great fun even into the 1970's because of the excellent
engineering.
Post by BFoelsch
Post by John Gilmer
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
That was true of brand new tubes straight out of the box just as
much as for tubes in operating equipment.
I never experienced this, at least not in entertainment equipment. Some test
equipment used selected tubes, but by and large BRAND NAME new tubes were
pretty much interchangeable.
Test equipment was one area where they weren't interchangeable. RF use
was another. TV sets for example! And other uses for tubes meant for
TV sets, such as the many Ham Radio transmitters that were designed using
TV horizontal sweep output tubes. Many of those would work best with
one or two brands of tubes, and some would not work *at all* with some
brands.
Post by BFoelsch
There was a big scandal in the late 1950's,
however, where businesses were buying up used tubes, washing them,
relabelling them and selling them as new. That may be the origin of that
story.
Nope. Experience in the 60's and 70's with tubes used in commercial
radio equipment.
Post by BFoelsch
Post by John Gilmer
Well, that partly explains how the Japs god ahead of us in consumer
electronics. With reasonable quality control one should be able to mix and
match.
As stated above, I never observed any real QC issues with name brand
product.
It doesn't have to do with QC, and Japanese made tubes were no
different. The problem is that a given tube type had a
relatively small set of target characteristics which defined it,
as compared to a much larger set of characteristics that
affected its actual operation. The same production line, never
mind two different production lines, generates significant
variations in the second larger set. Transistors are even
worse!

But manufacturer's did learn, and with transistors they came up
with the solution. Rather than hundreds or thousands of tube
types, there are tens of thousands of transistor types! The
same production line would be manufacturing several different
devices, and the difference was determined by testing them.

That continued to be done with IC's too, though to a lesser
degree. For example the 80386sx, the cpu without the math
co-processor, came off the same production as the version with a
working co-processor... :-) (Hmmm... I wonder if the external
math-coprocessor was just a cpu with a malfunctioning cpu and a
working coprocessor???) And usually there have been a least a
couple of different variations of clock rates for each cpu,
again all off the same production line.

(None of which detracts from the actual fact that the Japanese
had *much better* quality control for such manufacturing
processes, and that did indeed give them an advantage.)
Post by BFoelsch
Post by John Gilmer
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Which is to say, rather than a tube tester, the usual practice
was to have a large caddy of tubes for use as "swapping spares".
Aside from everything else, it's a lot quicker to just exchange tubes than
plug in a tester and test the tube.
Mostly because it is a definitive test, while a tube tester is a wild
guess in most cases.
Post by BFoelsch
Post by John Gilmer
If quality control was really that bad switching tubes could lead to nothing
at all working.
You had to learn *how* to do it! People would randomly swap tubes
and lose track of which ones started where. Bad! Swap a tube, and
if it doesn't change, _put_ _the_ _old_ _one_ _back_.

That's hard to do perfectly every time though, and leads to
another problem, for which there is a definite solution.
Between swapping tubes and ending up with a mixture of used and
new, the *bad* ones get mixed into the pile! Our initial
solution was to toss the whole bunch the instant it was realized
that any one of them could be bad. That wasted a dozen or so good
tubes to avoid a bad one.

But a better idea came along... a bad tube should immediately
be "marked". Yeah! Just bend all the pins flat. That was so
easy to do that everyone in the crew I worked with found it an
easy habit to form. (We shared rolling test equipment bays and
tube stocks. Doing a full blown routine on a radio set might go
through a couple hundred tubes each for one or two types, and
another 50 for all others. So we're be grabbing spare tubes by
the handful at a time.)
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ***@barrow.com
Don Kelly
2005-05-07 02:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shymanski
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Exactly. Now... remember all the nice little "cathode
activity" tests that were built into many circuits in L carrier
systems? Put a voltmeter across a resistor in series with the
plate circuit, thus measuring plate current, and then lower the
filament voltage a specified amount. The plate current will
drop, and if it goes too far down, the tube should be replaced
because the "cathode activity" is too low.
Every drug store had a testor like this in the 40-50's. A very few
actually measured gm.
I personally used a drug store tube tester as late as 1973. And I
worked at a steel mill where the instrument shop kept a tube tester
around till well into the 1990's, because there was at least one
tube-based amplifier in the plant.
Bill
And by that time you probably had to order your tubes from Russia! :)
--
Don Kelly
***@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer
John Gilmer
2005-05-07 18:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kelly
And by that time you probably had to order your tubes from Russia! :)
73 was definitely toward the end of the tube era tube sets were still being
made. The tube era was extended by a few years with the "compactron" tubes
which had 3 or more sections and something like 12 to 18 pins or so. The
tubes were a lot more reliable by then too. The life limiting factor
started to be components (like caps or transformers) that were damaged by
the heat from the tubes rather than the tubes themselves.

As examples: I had a set last last from 1980 to about 2003. It had one
repair when it was about a year old. It was mostly solid state but the
picture sure wasn't.

Likewise, I have a working microwage thats over 25 years old.
VWWall
2005-05-07 16:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shymanski
Post by VWWall
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Exactly. Now... remember all the nice little "cathode
activity" tests that were built into many circuits in L carrier
systems? Put a voltmeter across a resistor in series with the
plate circuit, thus measuring plate current, and then lower the
filament voltage a specified amount. The plate current will
drop, and if it goes too far down, the tube should be replaced
because the "cathode activity" is too low.
Every drug store had a testor like this in the 40-50's. A very few
actually measured gm.
I personally used a drug store tube tester as late as 1973. And I
worked at a steel mill where the instrument shop kept a tube tester
around till well into the 1990's, because there was at least one
tube-based amplifier in the plant.
About six months ago, my son found a B&K Dyna-Quik Dynamic Mutual
Conductance Tube Tester. It has a tapped transformer which provides
heater voltages from 1.5 to 50V. It is a true mutual conductance
tester, using a regulated 1.5 V AC on the grid, and measuring the output
with a built-in VTVM. It's complete with the tube settings manual, and
according to the catalog inside the case, sold for $119.95 in 1967. It
uses a "good-bad" scale, or can be set to measure the actual gm.

I haven't got around to trying it yet. I want to first test the four
electrolytics in it to see if they need replacement or reforming.
I still have several dozen old tubes which I can use to check.

I have a 1952 edition of the RCA "Radiotron Designer's Handbook", which
was the early "bible" for vacuum tube circuit design up to the TV era.
There's still a lot of good information on basic circuit components.
I also have the three volume, loose leaf, RCA Tube Handbook with
up-dates to about 1955. It includes receiving, transmitting, CRT and
special tubes made by RCA. If anyone needs info on an odd-ball tube,
made by RCA, I'll be happy to look it up.

As you know, tube amps are the rage with musicians, especially guitar
amplifiers. Tubes are going for many times their original price, if
they can be found at all.

--
Virg Wall
Repeating Rifle
2005-05-07 18:57:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
As you know, tube amps are the rage with musicians, especially guitar
amplifiers. Tubes are going for many times their original price, if
they can be found at all.
This is driving me crazy! Other than providing a favorable kind of
distortion, whatever that is, in what way do tube amplifiers outperform
solid state versions? Even if it is distortion that these crazy audiophiles
want, what is the distortion? Why can that distortion be reproduced using
solid state devices?

Bill
m***@worldnet.att.net
2005-05-07 23:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Repeating Rifle
Post by VWWall
As you know, tube amps are the rage with musicians, especially guitar
amplifiers.
This is driving me crazy!
http://groups.google.es/groups?selm=tpe123-0803992343330001%40192.168.2.5&hl=en

may provide insight.

Matt Roberds
Jimmie
2005-05-14 18:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Repeating Rifle
Post by VWWall
As you know, tube amps are the rage with musicians, especially guitar
amplifiers. Tubes are going for many times their original price, if
they can be found at all.
This is driving me crazy! Other than providing a favorable kind of
distortion, whatever that is, in what way do tube amplifiers outperform
solid state versions? Even if it is distortion that these crazy audiophiles
want, what is the distortion? Why can that distortion be reproduced using
solid state devices?
Bill
Because tubes have a different sound than solidstate amps. I will not
qualify as one better than the other but for the most part people just
prefer the tube sound. In other words, there is a difference and a choice is
made. This is more imporant in a guitar amp than in a hifi amp. In music the
distotion is part of the sound that is desired, In Hifi there should be as
little distortion as possible. The ctriterion for hifi can be meet with
either tube or solidstate amp. For music where the distotion is much more
pronounced the type of distotion is much more critical.
Repeating Rifle
2005-05-14 19:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jimmie
Because tubes have a different sound than solidstate amps. I will not
qualify as one better than the other but for the most part people just
prefer the tube sound. In other words, there is a difference and a choice is
made. This is more imporant in a guitar amp than in a hifi amp. In music the
distotion is part of the sound that is desired, In Hifi there should be as
little distortion as possible. The ctriterion for hifi can be meet with
either tube or solidstate amp. For music where the distotion is much more
pronounced the type of distotion is much more critical.
If distortion is wanted, there are analog and digital methods available to
introduce distortion in a known way. A twin 2GHZ twin processor G5 computer
using 64 bits could run circles around any audio signal that can be put into
it.

It is difficult for me to understand why amplifier nuts, er..
perfectionists, do not delve into quantifying the distortions that do the
best jobs for the music of interest. It should not be that difficult to make
a function generator to duplicate the distortion of a tube. Moreover, that
distortion could be made to vary dynamically according to the desire of the
performer. In any event, how does the distortion survive the negative
feedback in the amps?

Bill
keith
2005-05-15 04:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Repeating Rifle
Post by Jimmie
Because tubes have a different sound than solidstate amps. I will not
qualify as one better than the other but for the most part people just
prefer the tube sound. In other words, there is a difference and a choice is
made. This is more imporant in a guitar amp than in a hifi amp. In music the
distotion is part of the sound that is desired, In Hifi there should be as
little distortion as possible. The ctriterion for hifi can be meet with
either tube or solidstate amp. For music where the distotion is much more
pronounced the type of distotion is much more critical.
If distortion is wanted, there are analog and digital methods available to
introduce distortion in a known way. A twin 2GHZ twin processor G5 computer
using 64 bits could run circles around any audio signal that can be put into
it.
It is difficult for me to understand why amplifier nuts, er..
perfectionists,
Teh technical term is "audiophools".
Post by Repeating Rifle
do not delve into quantifying the distortions that do the
best jobs for the music of interest.
They fail every double-blind experiment. ...worse than Randi doing Uri.
Audiophools like the "warmth" of toobz. On a cold winter night I prefer a
fire in the fireplace, but...
Post by Repeating Rifle
It should not be that difficult to make
a function generator to duplicate the distortion of a tube. Moreover,
that distortion could be made to vary dynamically according to the
desire of the performer. In any event, how does the distortion survive
the negative feedback in the amps?
One of the suggestions on sci.electronics.design was a "double-blind"
experiment where a toob amplifier was recorded and played back through a
decent SS amp (perhaps even with glowing filiments showing), and challenge
the audiophools to tell the difference. Repeat experiment with black
vinyl and CD. The fact is the ear isn't as good as either.
--
Keith
Repeating Rifle
2005-05-03 21:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
When I worked at Bell Labs in 1950, one of my jobs was pumping the tubes
that were used in TAT3, one of the early telephone trans-Atlantic
cables. It had vacuum tube repeaters about every forty miles. The
heaters of all of these were connected in series! It required a few
kilovolts DC at each end. The amplifiers were powered by the voltage
drop across the heaters. These heaters ran on about 24V DC for each tube.
I happened to be visiting Bell Labs Whipany, in 1956 I think, when the cable
was dedicated.

Bill
Repeating Rifle
2005-05-03 21:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
There are a few that ran at 2.5V, 2.8V, and a bunch of rectifiers at 5V.
There were even 18.9, 25, 35, 45, 50, 70, and 117V heaters. The most
famous of these were the ones used in the AD/DC five tube receivers in
which the heaters were all in series across the 117V line.
For most of the tubes, the number 6 in a 6SQ7 or 12 in a 12SQ7 designated
the nominal heater voltage. Otherwise, tubes with the same designation
except for the heater were supposed to be the same. Some tubes like
rectifiers and output amplifiers required higher voltages for the heaters to
produce the required electron emission.

In particular, many AC/DC sets use a 35L6 or 50L6 beam tetrodes for the
output stage. In this cased, however, they were not analogs of the venerable
6L6.

Without further designation, these tuves had metal tube envelopes. For lower
cost, smaller glass envelope tubes were used with a GT designation, such as
12SQ7GT.

Bill
Andrew Gabriel
2005-05-03 22:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Repeating Rifle
For most of the tubes, the number 6 in a 6SQ7 or 12 in a 12SQ7 designated
the nominal heater voltage.
For the European numbering, it's the first letter...
'D' is 0.5-1.5V, 'E' is 6.3V, 'G' is 5V.
For series operation, 'H' is 150mA, P is 300mA, U is 100mA.
Post by Repeating Rifle
Without further designation, these tuves had metal tube envelopes. For lower
cost, smaller glass envelope tubes were used with a GT designation, such as
12SQ7GT.
Or the older glass ones with just a G designation, which
I once heard someone describe as "female form shape" ;-)
--
Andrew Gabriel
Floyd L. Davidson
2005-05-04 00:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Repeating Rifle
Post by VWWall
There are a few that ran at 2.5V, 2.8V, and a bunch of rectifiers at 5V.
There were even 18.9, 25, 35, 45, 50, 70, and 117V heaters. The most
famous of these were the ones used in the AD/DC five tube receivers in
which the heaters were all in series across the 117V line.
For most of the tubes, the number 6 in a 6SQ7 or 12 in a 12SQ7 designated
the nominal heater voltage. Otherwise, tubes with the same designation
except for the heater were supposed to be the same. Some tubes like
rectifiers and output amplifiers required higher voltages for the heaters to
produce the required electron emission.
I don't know of any that use higher voltages to get better
emission. Commonly they use low voltages and significant amounts
of current though.

Rectifiers typically used 5 volts on the filament. As opposed
to the typical "receiving" tube such as 6AK5 etc, which actually
has a 6.3 volt filament, many transmitting tubes require 5.0 or
6.0 volts.
Post by Repeating Rifle
In particular, many AC/DC sets use a 35L6 or 50L6 beam tetrodes for the
output stage. In this cased, however, they were not analogs of the venerable
6L6.
The 35L6 and 50L6 are identical to a 25L6, which is a "low-power
6L6" with a higher filament voltage. Of course there are a
couple dozen or more "standard" variations on a 6L6, so it's
hard to say that the 25L6 wasn't really a 6L6 just because it
had slightly lower power ratings instead of slightly higher as
most did. :-)
Post by Repeating Rifle
Without further designation, these tuves had metal tube envelopes. For lower
cost, smaller glass envelope tubes were used with a GT designation, such as
12SQ7GT.
The metal envelopes were a fad that occurred in the 1930's, and
continued on momentum only into the 40's. By that time nobody
really wanted to make them. But the original 6L6, which was the
first "beam tetrode" design and spawned hundreds of other
similar tubes, was a metal tube. The first glass tubes to
replace metal tubes (as opposed to glass tubes that had no metal
counterpart) added a G suffix, but then other variations came
along too and there are GA, GB, GC, GN, GS, GT, GX, and who
knows how many others. Those would all be, for the most part,
direct replacement tubes, though it wasn't uncommon to find
circuits that did not work well with certain versions, or for
that matter with tubes from certain manufacturers.

Suffixes with A also had a significant meaning, and for the life
of me I can't remember what it was! Probably the ability to do
a "slow warm up" with less of current surge.

WECO of course did not label tubes that way. Their designs were
numbers, for example a 408, and then there might be be a 408A,
408B and so on as "improved" or sometimes "selected" variations
were produced.

Tubes like the 6AK5 mentioned above (a 7 pin miniature) did not
ever have a metal counterpart, and therefore did not have a G
suffix. However, sometimes there were special selected
variations of such tubes that might have suffixes like W for a
ruggedized version. And there were identical tubes with 4 digit
numbers too. A 5654 was a 6AK5, for example.

Some tubes were "selected" according the customer too! There
were lots tubes that either had a prefix or a suffix of "WA",
which were selected for the White Alice Communications System in
Alaska. If I remember the number right, the 416B tubes we used
were all labeled WA6280 (it might have been 6280WA though), and
I seem to remember 5654WA tubes, but it may have been some other
type.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ***@barrow.com
Repeating Rifle
2005-05-04 05:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by Repeating Rifle
Post by VWWall
There are a few that ran at 2.5V, 2.8V, and a bunch of rectifiers at 5V.
There were even 18.9, 25, 35, 45, 50, 70, and 117V heaters. The most
famous of these were the ones used in the AD/DC five tube receivers in
which the heaters were all in series across the 117V line.
For most of the tubes, the number 6 in a 6SQ7 or 12 in a 12SQ7 designated
the nominal heater voltage. Otherwise, tubes with the same designation
except for the heater were supposed to be the same. Some tubes like
rectifiers and output amplifiers required higher voltages for the heaters to
produce the required electron emission.
I don't know of any that use higher voltages to get better
emission. Commonly they use low voltages and significant amounts
of current though.
Rectifiers typically used 5 volts on the filament. As opposed
to the typical "receiving" tube such as 6AK5 etc, which actually
has a 6.3 volt filament, many transmitting tubes require 5.0 or
6.0 volts.
The "classical" AC/DC set used a string of tubes requiring 0.15A for the
heater. The ususal low power tube in the string ran at 12V. The output tube
and rectifier tube required more heater power than could be obtained at 12
(actually 12.6 nominal) volts and 0.15A. Thus, the typical 50L6GT output
tube used 50V and the typical rectifier 35Z5 tube used 35V. Three 12V tubes
and these higher heater voltage tubes gave a string that required about 120V
to run. The 35Z5 had a tapped heater that was used to obtain power for a
pilot light.

The classical AC/DC used "bantam" octal tubes that were keyed to orient them
with respect to the socket. The 6AK% was a later tube that did not use an
octal base.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by Repeating Rifle
In particular, many AC/DC sets use a 35L6 or 50L6 beam tetrodes for the
output stage. In this cased, however, they were not analogs of the venerable
6L6.
The 35L6 and 50L6 are identical to a 25L6, which is a "low-power
6L6" with a higher filament voltage. Of course there are a
couple dozen or more "standard" variations on a 6L6, so it's
hard to say that the 25L6 wasn't really a 6L6 just because it
had slightly lower power ratings instead of slightly higher as
most did. :-)
Post by Repeating Rifle
Without further designation, these tuves had metal tube envelopes. For lower
cost, smaller glass envelope tubes were used with a GT designation, such as
12SQ7GT.
The metal envelopes were a fad that occurred in the 1930's, and
continued on momentum only into the 40's. By that time nobody
really wanted to make them. But the original 6L6, which was the
first "beam tetrode" design and spawned hundreds of other
similar tubes, was a metal tube. The first glass tubes to
replace metal tubes (as opposed to glass tubes that had no metal
counterpart) added a G suffix, but then other variations came
along too and there are GA, GB, GC, GN, GS, GT, GX, and who
knows how many others. Those would all be, for the most part,
direct replacement tubes, though it wasn't uncommon to find
circuits that did not work well with certain versions, or for
that matter with tubes from certain manufacturers.
The metal tubes had the advantage of not requiring separate shields.
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Suffixes with A also had a significant meaning, and for the life
of me I can't remember what it was! Probably the ability to do
a "slow warm up" with less of current surge.
WECO of course did not label tubes that way. Their designs were
numbers, for example a 408, and then there might be be a 408A,
408B and so on as "improved" or sometimes "selected" variations
were produced.
Tubes like the 6AK5 mentioned above (a 7 pin miniature) did not
ever have a metal counterpart, and therefore did not have a G
suffix. However, sometimes there were special selected
variations of such tubes that might have suffixes like W for a
ruggedized version. And there were identical tubes with 4 digit
numbers too. A 5654 was a 6AK5, for example.
Floyd L. Davidson
2005-05-04 16:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Repeating Rifle
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Post by Repeating Rifle
For most of the tubes, the number 6 in a 6SQ7 or 12 in a 12SQ7 designated
the nominal heater voltage. Otherwise, tubes with the same designation
except for the heater were supposed to be the same. Some tubes like
rectifiers and output amplifiers required higher voltages for the heaters to
produce the required electron emission.
I don't know of any that use higher voltages to get better
emission. Commonly they use low voltages and significant amounts
of current though.
Rectifiers typically used 5 volts on the filament. As opposed
to the typical "receiving" tube such as 6AK5 etc, which actually
has a 6.3 volt filament, many transmitting tubes require 5.0 or
6.0 volts.
The "classical" AC/DC set used a string of tubes requiring 0.15A for the
But that is not a case of needing a higher voltage to get enough
emission. That's a case of needing lower current because it
is in a series string.
Post by Repeating Rifle
heater. The ususal low power tube in the string ran at 12V. The output tube
and rectifier tube required more heater power than could be obtained at 12
(actually 12.6 nominal) volts and 0.15A. Thus, the typical 50L6GT output
tube used 50V and the typical rectifier 35Z5 tube used 35V. Three 12V tubes
and these higher heater voltage tubes gave a string that required about 120V
to run. The 35Z5 had a tapped heater that was used to obtain power for a
pilot light.
The classical AC/DC used "bantam" octal tubes that were keyed to orient them
with respect to the socket. The 6AK% was a later tube that did not use an
octal base.
I'm not sure what you want to say threre. The original "All
American Five" AC/DC radio had regular octal based tubes and was
designed in 1938 or 1939. That was very popular in the 40's,
but after WWII the use of 7-pin miniature tubes became the norm.
There were variations: some used 6 tubes, some used loctal
sockets. But they were all electrically almost identical and
the design was so simplified that all totaled the radio had only
about 50 parts if even the screws were counted.

A 1939 version would have used 12A8, 12K7, 12Q7, 35L6, and 35Z5
tubes, and may have been either metal or the G version with
glass envelopes (for the 12.6 volt filament tubes).

Starting in 1945 sets were built using 7-pin minuature tubes;
12BE6, 12BA6, 12AT6, 50B5, and a 35W4 being a typical
complement.

One of the first radios I ever played with was a Philco set that
use loktal socketed tubes. It was battery operated. (In the
late 40's my aunt and uncle lived in Forks, WN, and after he was
killed in a logging accident my aunt moved to Bremerton and gave
me that radio, probably because she no longer needed one that
used batteries).

...
Post by Repeating Rifle
Post by Floyd L. Davidson
The metal envelopes were a fad that occurred in the 1930's, and
continued on momentum only into the 40's. By that time nobody
really wanted to make them. But the original 6L6, which was the
...
Post by Repeating Rifle
The metal tubes had the advantage of not requiring separate shields.
Not much of an advantage, particularly when compared with all of
the disadvantages and the ease of installing a separate shield
if needed.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) ***@barrow.com
Ben Miller
2005-05-04 23:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Repeating Rifle
The "classical" AC/DC set used a string of tubes requiring 0.15A for the
heater. The ususal low power tube in the string ran at 12V. The output tube
and rectifier tube required more heater power than could be obtained at 12
(actually 12.6 nominal) volts and 0.15A. Thus, the typical 50L6GT output
tube used 50V and the typical rectifier 35Z5 tube used 35V. Three 12V tubes
and these higher heater voltage tubes gave a string that required about 120V
to run. The 35Z5 had a tapped heater that was used to obtain power for a
pilot light.
Before that, however, AC/DC sets used a string of 6 volt tubes with either a
ballast tube or a resistive power cord to drop the remaining voltage.
Ballast tubes ran VERY HOT! I have several sets with a 3-wire power cord.
One hot wire has the resistance necessary to drop the filament voltage. The
other hot wire is a normal copper conductor, used for the B+.

Ben Miller
--
Benjamin D. Miller, PE
B. MILLER ENGINEERING
www.bmillerengineering.com
Repeating Rifle
2005-05-05 01:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Miller
Before that, however, AC/DC sets used a string of 6 volt tubes with either a
ballast tube or a resistive power cord to drop the remaining voltage.
Ballast tubes ran VERY HOT! I have several sets with a 3-wire power cord.
One hot wire has the resistance necessary to drop the filament voltage. The
other hot wire is a normal copper conductor, used for the B+.
During WWII it was very difficult to get certain vacuum tubes. Popular
Science gave a fix for using a mix of 6 and 12 volt tubes of the same kind
except for the heater voltage. It used two power resistors and ended up
using four times the original heater power. Talk about hot...

Bill
Michael A. Terrell
2005-05-04 17:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by VWWall
Post by Roby
Anybody know why there were different filament voltages for rectifiers
(5 volts) and various small-signal tubes (6.3 or 12.6 volts).
Why didn't one size fit all?
Roby
There are a lot more voltages than those for filaments and heaters for
vacuum tubes. Some of the original tubes were designed to run from
batteries, and their voltages started at 1.5V, the so-called A battery.
6.3 V tube heaters ran from early automobile batteries with 3 cells in
series. The 12.6 V tubes were for the present generation automobiles
with 6 cell, (12V), batteries. The 5V for rectifier filaments was just a
convenient voltage for a winding on the power transformer.
There are a few that ran at 2.5V, 2.8V, and a bunch of rectifiers at 5V.
There were even 18.9, 25, 35, 45, 50, 70, and 117V heaters. The most
famous of these were the ones used in the AD/DC five tube receivers in
which the heaters were all in series across the 117V line.
When I worked at Bell Labs in 1950, one of my jobs was pumping the tubes
that were used in TAT3, one of the early telephone trans-Atlantic
cables. It had vacuum tube repeaters about every forty miles. The
heaters of all of these were connected in series! It required a few
kilovolts DC at each end. The amplifiers were powered by the voltage
drop across the heaters. These heaters ran on about 24V DC for each tube.
--
Virg Wall
The filaments were powered by lead acid cells, so the filaments were
rated at multiples of 2.1 volts per cell. The 1.5 volt tubes came later
for portable, dry cell power. The 5 volt rectifiers require a separate
filament winding, and are 2 or 3 amps at 5 volts. Its a tradeoff
between operating current and a rugged filament. There were rectifiers
with higher heater voltages and a separate cathode.

12.6 volt tubes were obviously designed to be powered from a 12 volt
lead acid battery, and the B+ was provided with a vibrator and step-up
transformer. Series string radio & TV sets used a wide range of filament
voltages. Different functions needed different heater power levels so
they developed tubes based on filament current IE: 150 ma string. You
added up the required voltage of all the tubes , and if needed, you
added a series resistor to drop the voltage. Some radios used a
"Resistor cord" AKA "Curtain burner" which had three wires, one of which
was nichrome for the filament string.

If you have more questions about tubes, and tube history visit:
news:rec.antiques.radio+phono where you'll find people who collect and
restore old radios, as well as a number of retired engineers with a lot
of knowledge about tubes and early electronics.
--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Roby
2005-05-04 11:58:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roby
Anybody know why there were different filament voltages for rectifiers
(5 volts) and various small-signal tubes (6.3 or 12.6 volts).
Why didn't one size fit all?
Roby
Gosh, it's great to learn there are other survivors who remember tubes!

I saw a sample of undersea cable and a repeater at Murray Hill in 1965.
I think the loss between repeaters was 60 dB. Is that correct?

Roby
Bob Eldred
2005-05-05 04:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roby
Anybody know why there were different filament voltages for rectifiers
(5 volts) and various small-signal tubes (6.3 or 12.6 volts).
Why didn't one size fit all?
Roby
Most filaments were 6.3volts. Even 12 Volt tubes like the 12AU7, 12AT7, etc.
had center taped filaments and were usually powerd by 6.3 Volts. Higher
voltages were popular for line operated radios where the filiments were all
in series adding up to 121 volts, no transformer needed. Five tube sets had
50, 35 and 3, 12 volt filaments in series. Other voltages were available for
battery operated and specialty equipment as somebody mentioned.
The five volt rectifier was a special case requiring five volts at high
current isolated from the other voltages, 6.3V etc. Isolation was required
because these were directly heated cathodes where the filament was often
several hundred volts above ground on the rectifier cathode. This could not
be connected to other filament circuits which were near ground potential.
They always had their own insulated transformer winding. The voltage was
low, five volts because the filaments were thick and had low resistance, but
the current was high. Smaller, receiving tube filaments used thin tungsten
wire in a metal sleeve that formed the cathode. The thin wires were higher
resistance and also lower power than the rectifiers. These usually ran at
near ground potential to keep the filament to cathode voltage a low as
possible.
Bob
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